'This Week' Transcript 6-18-23: Former Gov. Asa Hutchinson and Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse
A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, June 18, 2023 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.
JONATHAN KARL, ABC "THIS WEEK" CO-ANCHOR: We are joined now by Republican presidential candidate and former governor of Arkansas, Asa Hutchinson.
Governor Hutchinson, thank you for joining us.
Before we get to the campaign, I want to ask you, from your perspective as a former federal prosecutor, how serious do you think these charges from Jack Smith are against President Trump, former President Trump, and how damning is the evidence that he’s presented?
ASA HUTCHINSON, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & (R) FORMER ARKANSAS GOVERNOR: Well, I've tried scores of federal criminal trials, and taken them to a jury, and the cases don’t get any more serious than what’s been outlined by Jack Smith because you’re talking about the allegations of not handling our nation’s top secrets in accordance with law. You’re talking about obstruction of justice. And these are serous. And, obviously, they’re factually well-based because they lay out so many facts in the indictment.
Now, obviously, you’re going to hear another side whenever the defense presents their case, but this is serious and, obviously, Donald Trump should take him seriously, but the American people should because this case is most likely not going to come to trial before voters in Iowa and New Hampshire are going to have to decide the case, or decide the vote, which is going to involve them evaluating the seriousness of these charges. And I view them serious and disqualifying, actually, for a commander in chief.
KARL: Disqualifying. Well, I want to ask you about that, the – the timing. Based on your experience, do you think it is a real possibility that this trial could go forward, that Trump could be convicted and sentenced before the presidential election in November?
HUTCHINSON: It could. Ordinarily, this kind of case would come in that order. I would estimate a year under the normal circumstances. But it all depends upon how much the judge is going to hold the council’s feet to the fire and say, this is important in the public interest that this is handled in a – in an appropriate way and not drug out.
Now, ordinarily, you have the defense trying to drag it out and there’s going to be some real serious, legal issues here. So, I can see that this would be extended beyond the election date just because of the nature of this case. But I can also see that between – between June of next year and October, the election, that this case would be set for trial. Now, they might extend it because there is an election, but that really invokes the political timeframe into the judge setting the calendar. And that should not be a consideration.
KARL: There had been some talk about pardons. You know, you’ve seen some of – some of your – some of your other Republicans running saying that they would pardon Trump. But what I want to ask you about is the question of – of a self-pardon. What – what is your read on it? Can a – can a – can a president pardon himself? This – this has, obviously, never been tested by the Supreme Court and never been attempted.
HUTCHINSON: You know, I – from a legal standpoint, a constitutional standpoint, that is a question that the courts would have to resolve. I'm doubtful of it. I don’t think that’s what the Constitution intends in giving the president he pardon power. But, most importantly, it would be in appropriate, unseemly and – and – although I can certainly see a Donald Trump doing that. That’s exactly what he would intend if he got elected president. And if it was not brought to trial before then, he’s likely to issue that as well.
Fifty-six percent of Americans under a Marist poll say Donald Trump should drop out of the race under these circumstances. And that’s the biggest challenge politically is that independent voters particularly are not going to move in the GOP direction, if Trump is the nominee, under these circumstances, and under his promise, really to enact retribution. That’s not what we need and – and I think that is a serious, political issue as we go forward next year.
KARL: And you agree with those 56 percent? You thin that Donald Trump should drop out of this race.
HUTCHINSON: I've said that some time ago and it’s based upon the fact that you should put the office of presidency and our country above yourself. And whenever you’ve got these serious allegations against you, whenever you’ve got the challenge of multiple different investigations during the course of the next year it’s not fair to the country and certainly it’s not fair to the party that wants to get this country back on track. And so, to me, that is the high-level consideration the candidates should give to the important office of president in making that decision for the country’s interest.
So, yes, I think that he should drop out. Clearly, he’s not going to. This is going to be decided by the voters, which is the American process. But the American voters are going to have to decide on the merits of these charges.
And the whole concept of – of the – that so many Republican leaders adopting that this is a weaponization of the Justice Department. And I think they’ve made some bad decisions. I can certainly disagree with many of the decisions they’ve made, particularly Jim Comey and some of his reference to Hillary Clinton. But in terms of the overall charge of weaponization of the Justice Department, look at Donald Trump. He’s already declared that he’s – if he’s elected president, he’s going to appoint a special prosecutor to go after the Biden family. That’s called a weaponization of the Justice Department.
And so, let’s back off of these accusations and let’s get back to being the party of the rule of law, of the justice system supporting law enforcement and equal application of the law. Let’s don’t undermine the greatest justice system and criminal justice system and rule of law in the world today this side of heaven.
KARL: On Thursday the RNC rejected your request to eliminate the – the requirement to be in the debate you have to pledge to support the eventual Republican nominee regardless of who that is. SO, how are you going to handle that? Are you going to be willing to make that pledge, which would be effectively pledging to support Donald Trump if he actually won the nomination?
HUTCHINSON: Well, you have to make the pledge based on the fact that Donald Trump is not going to be our nominee and you’re confident of it, therefore you can sign a statement saying you’re going to support the nominee of the party. I'm not going to, you know, support, just like other voters are not going to support somebody for president who is under indictment, that is potentially convicted (ph) at that time. And so that’s not where I'm going to be. But we’re going to make that debate stage and Donald Trump will not be the nominee of the party and I'm sure that’s how those that participate in it will view that.
But it’s not a pleasant way to start off the debate. The RNC, I have great respect for that institution. I've served on it. They’re trying to hold the party together. But we need to concentrate on supporting the principles of the party, which is the rule of law, support of law enforcement and law and over, versus simply trying to circle the wagons around Donald Trump and making sure he’s protected going into next year.
KARL: All right, Governor Asa Hutchinson, thank you very much for joining us.
JONATHAN KARL, ABC “THIS WEEK” CO-ANCHOR: President Biden has refused to comment on Trump’s indictment but he held his first official campaign event yesterday in Philadelphia touting his record in office.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I’m looking forward to this campaign, I want you to know why, because you’ve got a story to tell. We’ve got a story to tell. We’ve got a record to run on. And most importantly, we’re not only changing this country, we’re transforming it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: Joining us now is Democratic Senator Sheldon Whitehouse of Rhode Island.
Senator Whitehouse, thank you for joining us.
I want to get to the Trump indictment in a moment. But, first, that campaign event was the first for Biden even though he announced he was running 54 days ago. Does he need to pick up the pace and be a little more aggressive?
SEN. SHELDON WHITEHOUSE (D-RI): No, I think he’s got a lot of time ahead of him, a lot of runway. And I think just laying a good solid base of these strong endorsements like he got out of the environmental community last week and he got out of the labor community at this big rally is just the way to go. I don’t know that people are interested in a whole lot of campaign noise out of him, and I think he’s doing it right.
KARL: Let me ask you. You said recently this about President Biden. You said, I think everybody would certainly like a younger Joe Biden. You know, I think the people are concerned about an 80-year-old president and I think that’s’ an issue that President Biden is going to have to deal with on the campaign.
So, how does he deal with that question, with the age question? How does he address it?
WHITEHOUSE: Well, I went on to complete that sentence that you quoted to say that he can do that by continuing to talk about his successes, about the experience, about the wisdom, about the tenacity that he brings to this job, and the record that he’s shown to the American people by virtue of those characteristics and qualities that he has.
And I think we’re going to see enormous amounts of new construction, whether it’s infrastructure. Factory construction in America is soaring right now. And when you’re building factories, there’s a lot more building that happens after the factories up as you’re building the products in the factory.
So, he’s got a really good story to tell about the end of COVID, the reduction of iNFLation, the explosion in infrastructure jobs and manufacturing, and I think that’s going to be a really solid baseline for him to go into the voters in the coming, what is it now, 15 months? Sixteen months?
KARL: If Trump wins the nomination, Biden would find himself running against somebody that is possibly under trial, and maybe multiple cases, prosecuted by his own Justice Department. How -- how do you see that playing out?
WHITEHOUSE: Well, I think he’s done a good job steering well clear of the prosecution. As you know, there are at least two firewalls between the president and this prosecution. First, he does not do Business with Attorney General Garland. He does not speak to him about criminal related matters. And second, Garland is firewalled off from this prosecution because he’s appointed a special counsel, and his ability to engage with the special counsel is extremely limited, limited basically to violations of departmental rules and policies and procedures and so forth, which hasn’t even been alleged yet.
So, he’s a long way from the special counsel prosecution and I think that goes forward, the way it should, pursuant to rule of law, pursuant to justice policy, and pursuant to the very able judgment of the special counsel team.
KARL: So, that makes sense in terms of trying to convince the country that this is not a political prosecution, especially Republicans and independents. But is there also a risk? I mean, Biden is not talking about this. Other top Democrats aren’t talking about this.
And yet, Donald Trump has made it the centerpiece of his campaign. So, you know, he’s the one out there, you know, professing his innocence, attacking the Justice Department, attacking the FBI, while Biden and other top Democrats are saying we’re not going to talk about the issue.
WHITEHOUSE: Yeah, I don’t think that works well for Trump, to tell you the truth. I know that’s his M.O. when he’s involved in civil litigation, when a bank is suing for the money that he owes, that kind of stuff. He goes into the sort of bullying, bombastic mode where he tries to make the other side as miserable as possible, and hopes that they’ll go away or settle on good terms.
When you’re dealing with federal prosecutors, that stuff just doesn’t work. It doesn’t matter. It’s just background noise to the federal prosecutors. So, it’s not going to help him at all in this case.
The case is going to go forward and as it does, we’re going to learn more about it through the motion practice, through as the Attorney General Garland said to the filings that the special counsel makes in the case. And there’s going to be a steady drumbeat of both activity and evidence that emerges as it properly should through the case itself.
KARL: Do you think Judge Aileen Cannon who was randomly assigned to this case -- she’s obviously a Trump appointee, ruled favorably in the past for Trump -- do you think that she can preside over this in a way that is independent?
WHITEHOUSE: I think that’s to be determined. As we all know, her first intervention in the case was very badly smacked down by the 11th Circuit, a conservative circuit, that not only overruled her but schooled her. And as a new judge, I’m not sure how often you want to do that. So, we will find out whether she goes back to regular normal judging or continues to be a Trump advocate in a robe.
And the only good news about that is that her decisions can’t kill off this case, until after a jury is empanelled and then jeopardy has attached. So, there’s going to be a lot of proceedings beforehand for special counsel Jack Smith to test her behavior, to see how she’s conducting herself and have time to move for her recusal if she’s not providing proper rulings.
I suspect there’s a pretty good chance that she will just decide this is a good time in her career for her to act like a real judge and she’ll take the correction of the 11th Circuit and act accordingly.
KARL: And that would make it much harder for Donald Trump to do what he always does, which is attack judges, as well. I mean, it’s hard to attack somebody --
WHITEHOUSE: Yeah, it would be very hard this judge for him.
KARL: Yeah.
WHITEHOUSE: Although I wouldn’t put it past him because attack is his mode.
KARL: No, no, and consistency is not -- not very consistently for a practice by Trump.
WHITEHOUSE: No.
KARL: So, before you, I want to ask you a question. I know you a long time friends with Bobby Kennedy Jr. You guys went to law school together. He supported your initial campaign, all of your campaigns, campaigned with you.
What do you make his run against Joe Biden? And are you still in touch with him? Are you still close with him?
WHITEHOUSE: Not so much, particularly since this political episode has begun. My 100 percent support President Biden. I don’t think that vaccines are a hoax or a scam or dangerous, and I strongly, strongly support the people of Ukraine in their bid for freedom under the onslaught of the Russian Military because I think that’s the frontier for freedom around the world.
So, I think Joe Biden has those issues and others right, and I’m more than happy to support President Biden for reelection.
KARL: All right. Sheldon Whitehouse, joining us from Rhode Island, thank you and happy Fathers Day.
WHITEHOUSE: Thank you. You, too.
KARL: Up next, the powerhouse roundtable with Donna Brazile and Larry Hogan breaks down all the week’s Politics.
We’ll be right back.
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