'This Week' Transcript 4-16-23: Sen. Lindsey Graham, Sen. Amy Klobuchar and Gov. Wes Moore
A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, April 16, 2023 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.
JONATHAN KARL, ABC "THIS WEEK" ANCHOR: Let’s dig into all of this with Republican Senator Lindsey Graham. Senator Graham joins us from Jerusalem.
Thank you for joining us.
I – you’re going to get a senator’s only briefing, all senator’s briefing, on this extraordinary leak. What questions are you going to be asking the administration?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, RANKING MEMBER, JUDICIARY COMMITTEE & (R) SOUTH CAROLINA: How a 21-year-old airman at the Massachusetts Air National Guard could have access to all of this information, why did he do it and what is the damage assessment?
I've been to Saudi Arabia, I'm in Israel. I can promise you, it’s been very damaging. There’s information about Mossad supposedly helping the protesters. There’s information about the air defense capability of Ukraine. And everybody in the region is really worried because, who wants to share information with the United States if you’re going to read about it in the paper or find it on the internet. So, this has done a lot of damage to us in the region.
KARL: I mean – I mean you – you were an air national guardsman. Are you surprised that a – that a – such a junior air national guardsman had access to this kind of information?
GRAHAM: I was a captain and major. I would be surprised if I had that kind of information.
Yes, the system failed. This is a major failure. And those who are trying to sugar coat this on the right, you cannot allow a single individual of the Military, intelligence community to leak classified information because they disagree with policy. I don’t know what led to this airman’s actions, but he’s done a lot of damage to our standing. It’s very hard to get people to come forward right now to tell us about things we need to know about if they feel like they’re going to be compromised. The sources, the methods of how we collect on adversaries have been compromised. And I am stunned that somebody at that level could have so much access.
So, the question is, how did he get it and why did he do it. And we – some people need to be fired over this.
KARL: I mean, as you mentioned, there are some on the right that are not only sugarcoating it but actually applauding him.
GRAHAM: Yes.
KARL: I mean take a look at what Marjorie Taylor Greene tweeted.
GRAHAM: Yes.
KARL: She said, Jack Teixeira is white, male, Christian and anti-war. That makes him an enemy to the Biden regime. And he told the truth about troops being on the ground in Ukraine and a lot more.
I mean Tucker Carlson’s kind of turning him into a hero.
What – what do you make of that? Why?
GRAHAM: What they’re suggesting will destroy America's ability to defend itself. That it’s OK to release classified information based on your political views. That the ends justify the means. It is not OK.
If you’re a member of the Military intelligence community and you disagree with American policy and you think you’re going to be OK when it comes to leaking classified information, you’re going to go to jail. It’s one of the most irresponsible statements you could make. The ability for America to gather intelligence from human resources on the ground has bee compromised. We can’t have a chaotic intelligence gathering system. If you give us information and it’s disclosed, you can lose your life. The way we gather intelligence protects our country. There are Military members serving today from Georgia and other places who are less safe because of what this airman did.
There is no justification for this. And for any member of Congress to suggest it’s OK to leak classified information because you agree with the cause is terrible irresponsible and puts America in serious danger.
KARL: So, let’s turn to the confusion over the various rulings on the abortion pill. I've heard you, for years, rail against judicial activism, saying that, you know, judges shouldn’t be basally legislating from the bench. So, what do you make of this?
GRAHAM: Right.
KARL: A single judge in Texas singlehandedly upending the legal status of – of the abortion pill.
GRAHAM: Yes, I don’t like a district court judge issuing a national decree. Even if I agree with the judge. And what the judge held here is that the Federal Drug Administration didn’t follow their own rules.
So, the Biden administration is trying to send the abortion pill through the mail. There’s a statute on the books called the Comstock Act that prohibits sending abortion materials through the mail. That’s going to go all the way to the Supreme Court.
So, I think the radical abortion policies of the Biden administration are wrong. But, at the end of the day, we’re a rule of law nation, and let’s see what the Supreme Court does with this.
But the decision by the Biden administration, Jonathan, to allow the pill to be sent through the mail violates an existing statute on the books.
KARL: What do you make of Florida? DeSantis has now signed a –has signed – DeSantis has now signed a six week ban. Is that going to complicate his efforts to become president of the United States should he become a candidate to have a six week ban that’s far more aggressive than what you’ve proposed?
GRAHAM: Right. So, the (INAUDIBLE) legislation, states can be more restrictive, but at 15 weeks we limit abortion on demand. My Democratic colleagues are not what you said. They has supported legislation allowing abortion on demand, taxpayer funded, up to the moment of birth.
DeSantis will have to ask the question – answer the question, do you support a national ban at six weeks. Why did you pick six weeks. The legislative body of Florida supported what he did.
This is an issue worth talking about. Should we be a nation that allows abortion on demand, up to the moment of birth, with taxpayer funded money, or should we have limits at 15 weeks, like Europe. Should we be like North Korea and China, or should we be more like Europe nationally? Should states have the right to regulate abortion up to a point?
These are issues that matter. Should young girls be able to play Sports with biological males. The policy of the Biden administration is to allow young children, minor children to transition, to have their life turned upside down, to allow medical procedures to change gender before – before you get 18 years of age.
All of these issues will be on the ballot, and they should be.
KARL: And, Senator, you were just in Saudi Arabia. You met with Crown Prince Mohammed bin Solomon, MBS as he is known.
GRAHAM: Yes. Yes.
KARL: But I remember how highly critical you were of him after –
GRAHAM: Yes.
KARL: After the murder of Jamal Khashoggi, “The Washington Post” columnist.
GRAHAM: You’re right. Yes.
KARL: Let’s take a listen to what you had to say back in 2018.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRAHAM: I can never do business with Saudi Arabia again until we get this behind us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. OK, what does that mean?
GRAHAM: That means I'm not going back to Saudi Arabia as long as this guy’s in charge.
The crown prince is a wrecking ball. I think the behavior before the Khashoggi murder was beyond disturbing. And I cannot see him being a reliable partner to the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: So you said he was beyond toxic.
GRAHAM: Yes.
KARL: You would never return to Saudi while he was in charge.
GRAHAM: Yes.
KARL: So, what happened? What changed?
GRAHAM: Right. Well, a couple things happened. Number one, I've been talking with the Biden administration about working with Saudi Arabia to build on the reforms they’re doing in their country and to build on the Abraham Accords. If you get nothing else out of this interview, things in Saudi Arabia are changing very quickly for the better. I see a chance to normalize the relationship between the United States, Saudi Arabia and Israel that would be transformative for the region.
Saudi Arabia purchased $36 billion worth of 787 Boeing jets made in Charleston, South Carolina. They picked the Boeing 787 over the Airbus. I came over here to say thanks to Saudi Arabia. They’re thinking about buying more jets.
And I also came over to – to caution them about getting too cozy with China and Iran.
But vision (ph) 2030 of the crown prince is real. Women, they can drive for the first time in modern Saudi History, women can go out to dinner without a male escort. His vision for the county economically is transformative. $1 trillion is going to be spent to modernize Saudi Arabia. I’d like to be part of that transition.
What I saw in Saudi Arabia was a game changer for me. I want to build on the progress, but I want to have an honest, candid relationship. There are things that need to change in Saudi Arabia.
But, Jonathan, the ability work with Saudi Arabia is at an all-time high. If we could normalize relationships with Saudi Arabia, and then with Israel, build upon the Abraham Accords. It would be the biggest change in my lifetime regarding Mideast security and America's security.
KARL: All right, Senator Graham, thank you for joining us.
GRAHAM: Thank you.
KARL: All right, take care, sir. Appreciate your time.
KARL: And here now is Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar.
Thank you for being here, Senator Klobuchar.
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN): Thanks, Jonathan.
KARL: Let's start with the abortion ruling. The Supreme Court has issued this stay. But it's only until Wednesday. How do you expect this to play out?
KLOBUCHAR: To me, this is unbelievable. This is a drug that has been on the market for over 20 years. FDA does a thorough review, finds it safe. You've got it safe in 60 countries. It's used in over half of the abortions.
One judge from Amarillo Texas, two judges on the 5th Circuit, all of them Trump appointed, should not be making the decision for women across the country.
What is it going to be next? Is that judge not going to like birth control pills? Are we going to have a judge that doesn't like Lipitor?
There's a reason that Congress gave FDA the power to make these decisions about safety. So, this is coming up before the Supreme Court. The Justice Department is aggressively pursuing this case.
And as it is right now, literally, these judges decided -- well, you're not going to be able to take it up to ten weeks. We think it better to do seven weeks. Well, you can't get it in a pharmacy and you can't get it by the mail, so good luck.
KARL: So, what do you expect this court to do, the Supreme Court? Will it uphold?
KLOBUCHAR: I think this one is really interesting because they have interpreted what we call standing, the ability to sue pretty narrowly at times. And in this case, you have the American Medical Association way out there, not a radical group --
KARL: Right.
KLOBUCHAR: -- saying this drug is safe.
Then, you have the small group of people that brought this suit and they’re claiming, oh, this is stressful for us because it's against our morals.
Okay, fine. But that is not the standard for standing to bring a suit. You've got to show harm or the expectation of some harm. And I can tell you who's harmed by this -- it's women that are going to have to take a bus across the country, from Texas to Minnesota or Illinois. That's the problem right now.
KARL: And if the court does uphold this, what are your options?
KLOBUCHAR: Well, the first one is to continue to aggressively litigate it. Remember, there's another case out of Washington state --
KARL: Washington.
KLOBUCHAR: -- that applies to 17 states, including my state, that is also going to work its way up through the court.
So, they’re ultimately going to make the decision. So, this is about the stay during that time.
So, aggressive litigation. The second thing is realizing where the voters of this country are -- 70 percent to 80 percent are with us. The Republican Party however is not backing down, it is doubling down, putting in six-week abortion bans in – in Florida.
What you’ve seen with criminalizing women. Trying to criminalize doctors. This is an outrageous position for them to take. So, ultimately, yes, this will get resolved state by state, but it’s going to get resolved in the ballot box in the 2024 election.
KARL: So, this will be a central issue in 2024?
KLOBUCHAR: Yes, it will.
KARL: So, I want to ask you about one of your colleagues on the Judiciary Committee, Senator Dianne Feinstein. She has not voted since February 16th. She’s suffering from shingles right now. Is – is her absence in such a closely divided Senate hurting you?
KLOBUCHAR: Well, I think she made the right decision to step off the Judiciary Committee. I serve on that committee. And we cannot advance judges or legislation with a missing person because of the close vote. So basically, in the next week or so, you're going to see Senator Schumer, probably sooner than later, putting forward a name, and then the Senate, as they've done in the past, can vote to put this person on unanimously. That's what happened when you had Bob Dole resigning to run for office.
KARL: You don't think Republicans are going to try to block that?
KLOBUCHAR: I don't know. I sure hope not because that is against the precedent of the Senate and how we’ve run things. But that's the first thing. So, she did the right thing.
As for the long term, many people have been out, as you know, for periods of time when they're sick, and they have come back. In this case, we are going to need her vote on the Senate floor eventually. We have things like the debt ceiling coming up. But I think what we need to do is take her at her word. She is recovering from shingles. And make sure she comes back. If this goes on month after month after month, then she’s going to have to make a decision with her family and her friends about what her future holds because this isn't just about California, it's also about the nation. And we just can't, with this one vote margin, and expect every other person to be there every single time.
KARL: Some – some of your –
KLOBUCHAR: It’s going to become an issue as the months go by. But I'm taking her at her word that she’s going to return.
KARL: Because – because some of your Democratic colleagues in the House anyway are saying she should resign now. Let’s take a look at what Ro Khanna had to say. He tweeted, it’s time for Senator Feinstein to resign. We need to put the country ahead of personal loyalty. While she has had a lifetime of public service, it is obvious she can no longer fulfill her duties. Not speaking out undermines our credibility as elected representatives of the people.
What do you say to Ro Khanna?
KLOBUCHAR: What I say is this. One, she's gotten off the committee, and that is – or will get off the committee. That is the most important thing to happen right now.
Secondly, I think, when you look at the History, people have returned to the Senate when they’re sick. She says she has shingles. She has had shingles. And so months down the road here, I think you get to that moment of that decision point. But right now she says she’s going to return. Let's make sure that happens. And it sure better happen before the debt ceiling vote.
KARL: And before you go, Clarence Thomas, we’ve now had, you know, two sets of – of revelations from Pro Publica. One about the vacations he took with – with Harlan Crow, who he described as a family friend. And now it turns out Harlan Crow bought his mother's house, which he was a part owner of.
How serious is this?
KLOBUCHAR: Serious. When you have billionaires who are on boards with cases pending before the court, buying a justice's mom’s home and renovating it, and then that justice doesn't report it, this isn't even an exception for personal friendships, Jonathan. This is a case where the law clearly says, you have to report these things. Yet he reported that same year a medallion he was given from Yale. Another year he reported when he was given tires. But he doesn't report this? And he didn't report the lavish vacation on yachts?
It is time for ethics rules in the Supreme Court that are clear and enforceable. I said this the last time I was on with you on this very show when he wasn't recusing himself from cases pending before the court regarding the insurrection given his wife’s -- what we know now about her e-mails and texts and the like. This should not be a double standard. Every federal judge in the country comes under these ethics rules. So, if they don't do it, then the Congress should do it. And that’s why we're having a hearing to cover this on the Senate Judiciary Committee.
KARL: All right, Senator Klobuchar, thank you for being here. We appreciate it.
KLOBUCHAR: It was great to be on, Jonathan. Thank you.
KARL: Thank you.
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